Octuplets: Body language mother vs grandmother video

February 26, 2009

Finally found the radaronline video of the grandmother and daughter having at each other. As fas as the body language, you have to take into account the generational differences and cultural nuances, but the interaction between the two of them is pretty straightforward. They are seated at an angle from one another. The grandmother is more facing forward then toward her daughter. She won’t maintain eye contact and prefers to keep her head down and turned away but when she does look up her chin is up in a distinctly European gesture that I please wish someone would translate literally.

It is not a discussion or even a conversation. It’s a back and forth like you’d see with two first graders. Parry - thrust. Loud - quiet. Talking over the other person to drown out the truth. There is never an even exchange or even an attempt at such and it ends right where it started - the mother stuck in her delusion and the grandmother capitulating.

It will never be resolved - can never be resolved. Delusional madness met by denial always is.

The grandmother is exhausted and depressed and just wants to live in peace. There is a reason why she only had one child herself.

And the grandfather said to Oprah that his daughter is “not mentally complete” and then asked would Oprah be able to get his daughter a mental evaluation.

Why hasn’t Kaiser Permanente or Child Protective service demanded one? Her madness is on display daily for all to see. One need not be a psychiatrist to see that she is devoid of maternal instinct and completely divorced from the reality that awaits her once those octuplets enter the fray.

When they get to the point where other options are discussed - the grandmother doesn’t quite understand what an embryo is and the birther asks who would adopt an embryo. She had no idea such a possibility existed because it never existed in her brain. All this after - if what the birther says is true - 36 embryos were implanted.

And what about the kids?

How many times have they heard about wanting more children and about neglecting the children already born?

How does it make them feel, especially the oldest ones who have heard it for years?

These are the only maternal caregivers these children have. The only ones they are receiving love from. How much love and true affection in way of a maternal bond do you see between these two? Look at how little they are actually able to communicate. Birther talks over her mother and repeats the same thing like a 5 y/o would and then when she doesn’t win she giggles.

What is funny about any of this?

This is what the children have to mimic. How much SCREAMING do you think goes on in that house? And if they are this contentious in front of perfect strangers - they knew they were being videotaped and that the video would be placed online forevermore - what goes on at home in front of the children? And what about when the grandfather has had a cocktail or two?

The daughter is more open with her body language - she still doesn’t think anything she did was wrong and clearly will never be convinced. Toward the end of the confrontation she shows some measure of guilt (after the grandmother mentions her not taking into consideration the 6 children), when she describes what would be done to the embryos had she not chosen to implant them. Thing is she chose to have that many embryos manufactured and either she wasn’t told or didn’t want to hear that the embryos could in fact be donated to couples who haven’t been able to produce their own viable embryos. She admits straight out that it was her intent to use every single one of those embryos - no matter how many children they resulted in. She tried to catch herself but it was too late.

How much more pathology has to be displayed by this woman before someone intervenes?

Her admission makes clear that she did not care about the children themselves - she cared about having them - not caring for them. One would think that after she had one child with a neurological disability she would have stopped. And most definitely by the time three of them were diagnosed. She should have thought about their lives and their futures and not the potential of frozen embryos. And the more she keeps bringing that up, the more she proves that she was after collecting children for her own sake - not wanting to be a mother and caring for the ones she had already given life to.

It really is so very very sad and each day it gets worse.

She is not sitting fully on the chair on the side toward her mother and can put her hand down on the chair as her boundary - she also covers her genital region with the other hand. The grandmother is sitting in a very closed position with her hands on her lap and fingers tightly intertwined, which she always returns to. She’s heard it all before and is set in her view. She has her right shoulder up and is leaning away, her head tilted in disgust. She rarely looks at her daughter full on. I don’t know if they chose this sitting arrangement or the producers put them there. There is a couch in the background that they could have easily sat together on.

Most notable is the daughter’s affect. Does she look anything like a mother who is about to take 8 premature infants home to a 3-bedroom house that may not be there in 3 months and already contains 6 kids under seven - three of them neurologically disabled? Does she look like someone who understands she has 14 mouths to feed and 14 bodies to wash and dress?

I find her extremely detached and adolescent. She speaks the words of a parent but shows absolutely no emotion. The lives she felt so connected to as frozen embryos she refers to as things:

“that are growing. That are related to you. That are healthy, strong and almost all four pounds.”

And her affect doesn’t change at all when she talks about them. No look of concern of what pain they might be experiencing at that moment, or what she might be missing, or reference to what they’re doing that moment. Over and over she mentioned the fate of the frozen embryos but never once reflected on what she did to the ones already in existence. Not a single personal reference to any of her children. Just the abstract: frozen embryos, embryos, cells, lives, humans, human beings, “that” and “the babies”. Not a single “my child” or “your grandchildren”.

By her own words and affect you can see she is detached from the octuplets.

She is disrespectful to her mother - gesturing, talking over and interrupting her and invading her space.

How much patience do you think she has listening to her children if she disrespects like this the person who is providing care and shelter for them?

How much patience does she display in just this 2:58 conversation with an adult who isn’t hungry or tired or unable to communicate because of a neurological disability?

And when the autistic child wets his bed for the second time in one night?

When the octuplets are up around the clock?

When the grandmother finally says she’s had enough?

When the oldest girl says she wants to play with her dolls instead of watching her siblings?

The grandmother leans in and looks directly at her daughter when she feels she can make a point, but she always retreats. Compare the beginning and at the end - the grandmother is in the exact same position. At one point she puts out both of her hands in a sort of I want to shake you or choke you motion. In the end she just resigns herself to whatever happens making clear how this was allowed to continue happening.

Without a home and someone supporting her financially and caring for her children, how would the daughter have been able to have more children? She would have kept trying, most likely, but she would not have had the means.

Her mother may have said no more but she did nothing to actively prevent her from having more.

It's sad.

Tragic, really.

Eight innocent lives could each be given a fair shot while bringing joy and hope to eight families and beyond. And six other could have their childness saved.

The mother and the grandmother are similarly complicit in this heinous crime, as is the grandfather, who admitted out loud that his daughter is not mentally complete and yet he allowed her to bring more lives into this world. These are the three adults the children have to mimic.

Conversation was already underway..

ANGELA: When you already have six beautiful children.

NADYA: You need to learn to let go.

ANGELA: How could you do this?

NADYA: You need to learn - you need to learn to let go.

ANGELA: So, I will never understand.

NADYA: You never will. And I will never understand your inflexibility and your inability…

ANGELA: Inflexibility?

[Does she not care for those children?]

NADYA: Yes. To be able to accept and let go. Learn to let go.

ANGELA: Yes.

NADYA: But that’s the biggest challenge I had.

[Biggest challenge?]

ANGELA: But If I could totally let go, these are my grandchildren, I would. But you know its very difficult-

NADYA: No-no-no. Not now.

ANGELA: And you have 8 more.

NADYA: Excuse me. Not now. You need to learn to let go of what I chose to do. You didn’t accept it and move forward.

ANGELA: Right. I’m-

NADYA: Stop stagnating on…

ANGELA: I’m not…

NADYA:…and being fixated.

ANGELA: …at that, uhm…

NADYA: Place. You’re not at that place, yet.

ANGELA: No. I’m not.

NADYA: I planned on one growing - at the most two. So if that that had happened, what’s the difference, cuz this is all unintentional?

[Listen to that again. She said what's the difference. What's the difference between one and two and 8? Where are the psychiatrists? And that it was unintentional? It was as intentional as it gets. One or two more when you have six children and the person supporting you has filed for bankruptcy and has stopped paying the mortgage is one or two too many. You put six embryos into a uterus that has already produced 6 the most recent pregnancy twins you better expect to have six. She doesn't even grasp that even one more was wrong - whether they were frozen or not.]

ANGELA: But did you read about the statitstics?

NADYA: The statistics. This doesn’t happen. That doesn’t happen. this never ever happened.

[She says never and then admits she knew it had happened at least once - so she knew the possibility existed.]

ANGELA: Well, something.

NADYA: One person it happened to.

ANGELA SULEMAN: Something, something was [laughs] happening there.

Nadya makes a face and sighs. Shows absolutely no grasp of the gravity of the situation.

ANGELA: Because you know in the first place…

NADYA: OK.

ANGELA: You should have considered your other six children.

NADYA: OK. But I was still going to use - not going to destroy the embryos. Period. Done. Done. Done. It’s already done.

[She just said she was going to use all the embryos - not that she didn't want them to be destroyed. Right there is all that is needed. Her own words tell you who she was thinking of - herself. Her goal was to use them all - not to use them so they wouldn't be destroyed.]

ANGELA: But they are frozen embryos.

NADYA: You can’t go back and ring a bell. You can’t go back and ring a bell. You can’t go back and alter the past.

ANGELA: No, no, no. You’re talking now.,.

NADYA: They’re humans.

ANGELA: …that whatever you did

NADYA: They’re human beings…

ANGELA:..is is the past…

NADYA: …that are growing. That are related to you. That are healthy, strong and almost all four pounds.

ANGELA: They are frozen. That’s the difference.

NADYA: (Mocking) They’re frozen right now?

[Is this a comment an adult in her situation would be making? Is there anything in this exchange that if you didn't know would hint at the absolute gravity of her decisions? Turn the sound off and watch. Better yet, if you know someone who isn't aware of the story - have them watch with the sound off and have them try to guess their relationship and what the conversation is about. And then watch their face when you tell them what it was about. That is the look the mother should have on her face. ]

ANGELA: They were frozen. And you did not have to do anything.

NADYA: They were lives.

ANGELA: And if you wanted to…

NADYA: The only thing…

ANGELA: Yes, they were lives.

NADYA: …you can do with frozen embryos…

ANGELA: But they were frozen.

NADYA: …is use them or destroy them. You either use them or destroy them.

ANGELA: But you decided…

NADYA: You use them or destroy them.

ANGELA: Yes…

NADYA: You use them or destroy them.

NADYA: Do you know want to know how they destroy them?

ANGELA: No, no, no. Hold on.

NADYA: They allow them to live. They allow the cells to live…

ANGELA: Let me finish.

NADYA:…and they kill them.

ANGELA: Let me finish.

NADYA (like a child): No, I won’t!

ANGELA: You had another option.

Nadya bends over and laughs.

ANGELA: You didn’t have to have them destroyed.

NADYA: Ok. What did I have?

ANGELA: You didn’t have to have them.

NADYA: The other option is?

ANGELA: Given them up for adoption. There are so many, so many couples who would love-

NADYA: [She makes a face like it never entered her mind.] Give up the embryos for adoption?

ANGELA: Have them thawed, whatever they do, and have them adopted when they are, uh…

NADYA: [Mocking] Hmm, interesting.

ANGELA: …little humans.

NADYA: Who would do that?

ANGELA: Who would do that?

NADYA: Yeah. How could–I wouldn’t personally do that.

ANGELA: When you have already six.

NADYA: I couldn’t imagine…

ANGELA: Someone who thinks clearly.

NADYA: Yeah. I couldn’t fathom my own children out in the world — you have mentioned this to me a long time ago that you would never have been able to do that, knowing, for the rest of your life, that you’re gonna have your own children out in the world and you’d never know them. How could-I couldn’t personally do it and I would never judge anyone else.

ANGELA: Well, I don’t remember saying this, however…

NADYA: Ok, so when you saw the babies and you started to hold them, you were telling me that you have let go of my choice, you didn’t agree with it, and now you’re acknowledging the fact that they’re here already, and looking at you, and they’re breathing without any assistance.

ANGELA: Yes [laughs] and I felt sorry for them.

NADYA: Because they’re healthy and thriving and crying.

ANGELA: No. Because there are so many. And how are you going to be able provide for them? FOURTEEN.

NADYA: With help.

ANGELA: Think about it, Nadya.

NADYA: I have.

ANGELA: Fourteen

NADYA: I have to let go of my need to control everything, and I have to accept the help that’s been offered.

She said this like it was the party line.

ANGELA: I see. I hope you’ll get help.

NADYA: Ok.

ANGELA: I really hope so.

***

(1-30) Octuplets: Ethics of fertility treatment?
(1-30) Octuplets: What is really going on?
(2-9) Octuplets: Should not go home with that woman
(2-9) Octuplets: Octuplets: already filthy house unfit for children (pix)
(2-23) Octuplets: Mother vs grandmother caught on tape
(2-24) Octuplets: Cosmetic surgery, IVF, food stamps, disability, bankruptcy & foreclosure
(2-24) Octuplets: Mother before/after plastic surgery & Angelina Jolie (pix)
(2-25) Octuplets: Grandfather on Oprah daughter “not mentally complete”
(2-25) Octuplets: Hospital questioning her ability to care for children
(2-26) Octuplets: Video of inside the home
(2-26) Octuplets: Body language mother vs grandmother video (Part 1)
(2-26) Octuplets: Body language mother vs grandmother video (Part 2)
(2-27) Octuplets: Man claiming to be sperm donor
(2-27) Octuplets: Grandmother on The Early Show (Part 1)
(2-27) Octuplets: Grandmother on The Early Show (Part 2)
(2-27) Octuplets: Grandmother on The Early Show (Part 3)
(2-27) Octuplets: Grandmother’s first interview (Feb 9th)